It's now been two weeks since the end of my World Series of Poker Main Event. As noted in this column, I was mentally ravaged by the way it ended on Day 2.
However, the success of St. Louisan and Main Event chip leader Dennis Phillips combined with the cure-all of time have helped me be able to look at the experience and "the hand" with a little bit more appreciation...I guess.
Despite the satisfaction of seeing a St. Louisan lead the WSOP, and despite the perspective time had provided me, I'd be lying if I said my bust out with a set of 4's versus poker pro Jeff Bryan's catch of a gutshot straight on the turn didn't still bother me.
Bryan, by the way, went on to soar up the leaderboard that day, and by the time I landed in St. Louis less than 5 hours after leaving the Rio in Las Vegas, my "nemesis" had moved into the top 10 in the World Series of Poker chip count. He wound up finishing in the money, and Bryan won nearly $30,000 for his efforts...which goes nicely with the $330,000 he won by finishing 27th last year.
While the WSOP was still going on, I had people asking me if I was pulling for or against the guy that knocked me out, and I said that I was pulling for him, because:
a. I could tell he was a good player.
b. I had no one to blame but myself for the hand.
c. Jeff Bryan seemed like a good guy in the limited time I had with him before he vanquished me.
And, sure enough...
...I guess I picked up one good read on Bryan. Not only is he a good guy, it turns out he lurks on insideSTL.com.
Friday night, I was getting mildly intoxicated at Flannery's and sitting at the bar bullshitting with some fine Americans. While venturing to the pisser and out of boredom mid-stream, I was checking my email on my phone...when I came upon a message of interest.
A comment had been left in my column detailing my demise from the WSOP...and that comment was left by none other than Jeff Bryan himself:
Tim,
It was a pleasure to play with you in the WSOP. I enjoyed reading your analysis of your final hand. I am sorry you couldn't have went further. No matter when you exit, it is always too early.
The second day of play was the day I made my hands. Unfortunately you found yourself in the crossfire. As one of your readers mentioned, I was planning to make a play on the turn. Of course I was hoping you had a hand like AK or AQ and worried it could be suited to the two clubs on the board. Had anything came but my straight card, I would have bet out about 1/2 the pot to find out if my top pair was good. If you raise me I fold, if you call, I am done with the charade and give up on the hand to conserve my chips.
I did respect your game and after catching the straight, I bet enough to let you know I thought I had the best hand and didn't want you drawing to a flush. I never suspected a set, so you were in great position to get some of my chips had the cards fell different (I guess we can say that about all hands). So..good game, shit happens. Also, just for the record, I am not a Canadian Pro, I am from Nebraska....Go Huskers...
Sincerely, Jeff, your new poker bud.
Now, I don't know why...but when I read that comment left on insideSTL.com, it gave me some closure on the whole thing. Don't get me wrong. It still hurts. But, it meant a hell of a lot for him to take the time to find the site and give me his take on the hand. I shot him an email to thank him...and that led to the following email exchange:
Jeff,
What's up?
It's been 2 weeks, and I'm still hurting.
All right...that's a little dramatic, but I'll never forget that hand. And, not once---not that I should...but I guess some people may---have I complained about you playing 58o. I complain about my "too small" reraise after the flop...and I complain (obviously) about my call on the turn.
That's just not like me to make a play like that. That's why I'm so disappointed. Hell---as you may have read---I laid down AsAc on Day 1 to a board of 6h6d4h and a $7,000 check raise after the flop. The guy later told me he flopped the boat...but who knows?
Anyway, I was at a bar Friday night going through my iPhone email when I saw you had posted a comment. I was thrilled. It gave me some closure---I guess---on that whole hand.
I'm flattered that you remember it.
I assume you ended up moneying, correct?
So, let me ask you this...if I raise it up to $10,000 more to go on the flop reraise as opposed to the $5,000...do you still come along for the ride? That, honestly, is the play that bothers me most...because even with the call on the turn...in which at the time (obviously) I was convinced you were a
big-stacked pro bullying me on a nice-sized pot on a draw...I still had 2 4's, 3 6's, 3 7's, and 2 8's to win...or 3 5's to chop. So, it wasn't the worst call in hindsight...but it's still a play that I, under those circumstances with the stack to blind ratio, wouldn't have played if I could do it over again...even if I knew I had you beat.
Here's another question I have for you: If I had talked to you while I tanked and said something along the lines, "Did you catch the straight?" What would you have said...if anything?
Honestly, I've told people that I got the vibe that you were the kind of guy---for whatever reason I felt this way....I have no idea---that you would have said something that let me know you caught it...because I got the vibe you felt kind of guilty about catching the straight with that hand once you saw I had a set...and, from the more business side of it...you didn't want a call...because you thought I was on a draw.
Perhaps I'm wrong...but when I've talked about that hand with people...or on the radio or in the paper...that's my theory. Not to say you'd Jamie Gold it, but that you would have said something like, "I'll show you," to let me know you had me.
Anyway, I was so excited to see you had posted a comment, and I'm looking forward to your response. By the way, how did you find insideSTL.com and the column?
Sorry about the Canada thing. I have no idea where I got that. I corrected it in one line, but I forgot to correct it later in the column.
Go Tigers. Screw the Huskers...and 85 offsuits.
Just kidding...
Tim
Yes, I ended up #437 - $27020 which also was very disappointing after my
second day finishing in the top 10 or so. (any cash is good, but you know what I mean) The 3rd day was the opposite of the second day; I never picked up a hand after 2 pm. Every time I tried to buy the blind I got re-raised. Finally about 1 AM (I went from 280K down to 100K) after we got to the money, I picked up AJ on the button, raised and the big blind called. QJ10 on the flop, he checked I bet the size of the pot, he put me all in, he looked like he had something big, I folded and he turned over AK. That is how the whole day went and I ended up at 52k to start the 4th day, which didn’t last too long.
Yes, a 10K re-raise and I probably take a walk. I was trying to accumulate chips with the raise under the gun with 8-5; if the timing is good, everyone folds, if not I hope to catch something on the flop, continue betting and try to take it down. When you called, I thought I ran into a big ace or maybe 10 10 or something, never really thought you had a little pair.
Yes, I would have said something to let you know I was sure I was ahead, and just didn’t want you to catch up with a flush or fill up if you had 2 pair or trips. I would just as soon take that pot their as chance losing the pot if you it hit, honestly had no interest in knocking you or anyone out. I just wanted chips….
I was just messing around and goggled myself/poker and the article came up, then I just snooped around to read the rest of what you wrote.
I DID notice you never dogged me about my play, which I really appreciated. Most people would have, especially when they are still ailing. Had I not had a stack, I wouldn’t have called your re-raise. Chip stacks are sooo important to the game.
The only thing you didn’t bring up (that I noticed anyway) is that you also could have folded 4-4 to the raise. Everyone would have their own opinion here too, but if I am marginal on chips, I would think about laying it down to a big stack raising in early position. You only catch a set about 1 out of 7 times, I have any pair, you normally are in big trouble, I have a big ace, it is a race which you don’t want to be in with 4-4. Probably the majority of people play it when in the big or even small blind, but I probably wouldn’t. As you know, you only get chips once, and I really like to preserve them in a tournament. I always think if I go out early, I won’t be there later…just my 2 cents; I am not criticizing your call by any means, just my take.
Later, Jeff
Jeff,
Thank you for the thorough and honest response.
I can imagine how the 437th place doesn't feel too good after being up that high. I had people on my message board on insideSTL.com (you ought to check it out....we now have a poker forum...people would be thrilled if you showed up and posted: (LINK) asking me if I was pulling for you or pulling against you as they saw your name shoot up the leaderboard, and I always said I wanted you to do well...not to validate my bust out...but because you seemed like a good guy and a solid player. You made a good play. I made a bad one. I can't be angry at you for that. That's the game.
Good to know (or bad to know) that I could've gotten you off the hand with a larger reraise (which is where my online familiarity and live game lack-of-familiarity) caught up with me. And, good to know (or bad to know) that if I would've said something to you while tanking, you would've said something to get me to lay it down. I have no idea why I didn't go that route...probably the online thing again. Either way, both my fault. And, both great/awful learning experiences.
As far as laying down the 44 preflop, that never crossed my mind, and I
don't regret that play at all...although you're the guy that's won 350k over the last 2 years out there...so maybe you know something I don't. I had around 36k in chips, and it cost me 1800 to just call. If someone came over the top with a bigger reraise, then I lay it down. If not...and it folds around to heads up...which it did...AND I hit the set...which, while the odds are slim as you noted, did happen...I've got position on a big stack...who rightfully so displayed aggression with that stack early in the day (partially because I'm sure that's the way you play...and partially because you were getting some great hands).
I regret not reraising more and not considering the possibilty of A5 more or (what I really didn't consider until after the fact...and not that it mattered, but it would've opened my eyes up to another way I could've been beaten) 9T...which would've been a good, solid preflop raise hand to play and see what happens with when you have the stack you had.
This is weird...and cool all at once. You read my Brad Lidge-Albert Pujols analogy. This is like Lidge getting a chance to ask Pujols what was going on in his head before he destroyed him.
Good stuff.
So, first you rip my heart out in November 1997 with that kicked-ball-for-a-touchdown at Faurot Field...and 11 years later, you crush my WSOP dreams with the Shevin Wiggins-Matt Davison of poker hands.
Either way, like I said before I even "knew" you, you came off like a good guy at the table...whereas, as you know (see what you dealt with with Kenny Tran last year on the infamous hand), not everybody is a gentleman at the poker table.
So it goes.
I'm sure you'll be back next year and run even deeper.
Tim
Tim,
I agree with all you said, good stuff. Yeah, every hand can take so many turns, after it’s over, its much easier to say or see what we all should have done different. Hindsight is always great…
I usually am a good guy at the table; I like to have fun and normally don’t pick on anybody unless they ask for it. Like Tran, I would have jabbed him if I would have stayed in longer…I think it can pay to be a normal decent guy at the table, sometimes good guys let each other off the hook…instead of nailing the coffin closed. That can be very true..
I don’t know if I will ever get deeper than 27, but I will keep trying. Next time I get your way, I will let you know. I haven’t played in any tournaments too close to SL, except south to Tunica.
Jeff
P.S. I will get on your message board later. Thanks. Jeff
And, as Mike Bush would say, there you have it.
I'm curious what your reaction is to what he had to say. I can tell you mine: I wish I had talked to him while debating whether or not to call. As I told people who asked me about the hand, I suspected if I would have gone into "poker talk" mode with him, he would've given me a vibe as to whether or not he had the 5. As mentioned above, the reasoning wouldn't have been a "moral" one. It would've been him catching the straight with a big 20k pot out there...and not wanting me to river him with a club draw (as he thought I was on) or the board pairing (which he didn't put me in need of).
I honestly got an almost apologetic sense from Jeff when I got up from the table after my demise. I think---and I could be wrong here---he was somewhat surprised that I didn't go "poker guy" and raise hell that he preflop raised under the gun with 85 offsuit.
As I've said now probably 100 times, every player has the right to play any two cards he or she would like to play. It was my bad reraise on the flop and my bad call on the turn (although I don't think it was as bad as the reraise) that did me in. Not Jeff Bryan playing 85o.
Finally, it proves to me that he is a good guy...as I suspected. And, I'm glad that I was pulling for him to succeed in the WSOP...even after ripping my heart out two weeks ago.
I look forward to staying in contact with him...and maybe...someday...getting my revenge, although I can't imagine it ever being as big as the kill he made on me...probably because he's too good of a player to let me get him. But, either way, we know he's a good guy...and that he's hanging out online here at insideSTL.com...and soon in the message board section at the STL Poker Room. For that, I can almost come to terms with him being the one to flip the switch on my dream of going deep in the 2008 WSOP.
What do you think? Log-in and post your comments below, or you can email me at tmckernan@insidestl.com.